Apostasy and Restoration — LDS View!

I came across the above video in which Jeff Durbin, of Apologia Studios, finds fault with comments made by Jacob Hansen, of Thoughtful Faith channel, regarding the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy of the early Christian church; which resulted eventually in the restoration of the gospel, the restoration of God’s true Church, through the prophet Joseph Smith in 1830, known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Jacob Hansen’s argument is that the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy does not mean that all Christians lost their faith, and that there were no more true, faithful, believing Christians left in the world who had a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It relates to the loss of the priesthood, prophetic, and Apostolic authority of the original church, which was lost, and needed to be restored. That is his point, with which Jeff Durbin (anti-Mormon), and David Alexander (LDS) disagree! Their main argument starts at around 17:33 minutes into the video, starting with Jeff Durbin’s remarks; followed by his quotes from David Alexander, agreeing with Jeff Durbin on those points.

I am not a fan of Jacob Hansen, nor of David Alexander (and certainly not of Jeff Durbin!). But I am going to have to agree with Jacob Hansen on this point. The LDS doctrine of the Apostasy of the early Christian Church does not mean that all Christians lost their faith, and there were no more true, faithful, believing Christians left in the world who had a saving faith in Jesus Christ. That is not what LDS scripture teaches, neither did Joseph Smith teach such a doctrine, nor is it the official position of the LDS Church. The Book of Mormon teaches that in the last days, God is going to restore his true Church and religion among the Gentiles, rather than among the house of Israel, because the Gentiles believe in him, and the house of Israel don’t:

3 Nephi 16:

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;

And likewise in the Doctrine and Covenants:

Doctrine and Covenants 10:

53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation [of Gentiles] harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church [which already exists among the Gentiles]; but I say this to build up my church [which already exists among the Gentiles];

55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church [which already exists among the Gentiles] need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain [e.g. Jeff Durbin and the like], yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble, and shake to the center.

57 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not.

58 I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

59 I am he who said—Other sheep have I which are not of this fold—unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not.

60 And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep [i.e. the peoples of the Book of Mormon], and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob;

61 And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name;

62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received [i.e. the gospel which already existed among the Gentiles], but they shall build it up [i.e. the gospel which already existed among the Gentiles], and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.

Thus God acknowledges the existence of his true church among the Gentiles at the time, before the Restoration takes place. A “church” is ultimately a “body of believers”, which existed at the time—although it did not have the fullness of the priesthood, prophetic, and Apostolic authority of the original church, which needed to be restored. We also have this interesting quote from another revelation received by the prophet Joseph Smith:

Doctrine and Covenants 137:

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

The only thing that needs to be added here is that when young Joseph Smith went into the woods to ask God which church was right, and which one to join, he was referring specifically to the churches belonging to those Protestant teachers and preachers who had created the “religious excitement” in the region where he lived, that he speaks of, who had excited his interest and inquiry; he was not referring to every single Christian church or religion on the planet, as it is often assumed. Similarly, when God condemns the teachers, preachers, and ministers of religion that he speaks of in that vision, he was referring to the same phenomenon. He was referring specifically to the Protestant teachers, preachers, and ministers of religion that Joseph Smith had encountered, who had created the “religious excitement” that he speaks of, in the region where he lived at the time; he was not referring to every Christian teacher, preacher, and minister of religion on the planet, as it is often portrayed. Here is the quote of what God actually said to Joseph Smith:

Joseph Smith–History 1:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” Link

And likewise when the “creeds” of the churches are condemned in the same vision, it is referring specifically to the Protestant creeds and confessions of those teachers, preachers, and ministers of religion. It is not referring to every creed in Christendom, such as the early creeds of Nicaea and Contantinople for example. After the Protestant Reformation, the Protestant churches had created for themselves a wide range of creeds and confessions to distinguish themselves from the Catholic, as well as from other Protestant churches; and that is what the Lord was referring to at the time.

More anti-Mormonism From Kelly Powers!

 

I noticed the above video from Kelly Powers, in which he again engages in his favourite activity of Mormon bashing and anti-Mormonism! His comments contain too many inconsistencies, which would be a bit tedious to discuss in detail; so I will confine it to a few main highlights. In this video he again focuses on the LDS doctrine of the Melchizedek Priesthood, claiming that it is not biblical (which I had previously discussed in an earlier blog post here; therefore it is not necessary to discuss it in detail again in this post). His main argument is that the LDS doctrine of the priesthood is not taught in the Bible—which is not a reasonable argument. It may not be directly taught in the Bible; but it does not contradict what is in the Bible either; that is the main point. The LDS doctrine of the origin of the Melchizedek Priesthood is taught in the following passage of LDS scripture:

Doctrine and Covenants 84:

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy [Melchizedek] Priesthood which he [Moses] received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro;

7 And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb;

8 And Caleb received it under the hand of Elihu;

9 And Elihu under the hand of Jeremy;

10 And Jeremy under the hand of Gad;

11 And Gad under the hand of Esaias;

12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.

13 Esaias also lived in the days of Abraham, and was blessed of him—

14 Which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah;

15 And from Noah till Enoch, through the lineage of their fathers;

16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother; who received the [Melchizedek] priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

17 Which [Melchizedek] priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.

18 And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations, which priesthood also continueth and abideth forever with the [Melchizedek] priesthood, which is after the holiest order of God.

19 And this greater [Melchizedek] priesthood administereth the gospel, and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the [Melchizedek] priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this [higher priesthood], no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy [Melchizedek] Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser [Aaronic] priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

That is what the Lord has revealed in modern LDS scripture about the role of the Priesthood—in both ancient biblical times, as well as in modern times—and there is no contradiction between that and what is taught in the Bible. It simply tells us more about it. More information is not the same as a “contradiction”. Kelly Powers likes to portray that as some kind of “contradiction”, which of course it is not.

He has also pointed out to verse 22 above: “For without this [higher priesthood], no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live”; arguing that it contradicts the Joseph Smith’s account of the First Vision, where God the Father and the Son appeared to young Joseph in a vision in the grove, in response to his prayers, before he had received the priesthood. That is not a valid argument either. That scripture, Doctrine and Covenants 84:22, refers to seeing God in an ecclesiastical capacity, as a church officer, administering officially in the affairs of the church. Joseph Smith was an exception to that rule. He was not acting in an official capacity, as a church officer, when he went to the woods to inquire of the Lord to know which church was right, and which one to join. He was a young, 14 year old farm boy, wanting to know for himself which church was true. Kelly has also quoted the following verses:

Galatians 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Arguing that the LDS Church is, or teaches “another gospel”! Not correct. The LDS Church teaches the true gospel, the same that was taught by Paul. It is his perverse Evangelical heresy that is “another gospel”. The following verses from modern LDS scripture will give him something more to think about:

Doctrine and Covenants 68:

8 Go ye into all the world, preach the [restored] gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:

28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my [restored] gospel unto every creature who has not received it;

29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

Doctrine and Covenants 1:

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

Someday he will learn and know for himself that Mormonism is true, Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and he established by revelation God’s true Church. He can know that truth now, be converted, and be saved; or wait until judgement day, be informed, and condemned. The choice is his.

More on the Rapid Decline and Fall of the US

 

After I had posted my previous blog message about the obvious signs of the rapid decline of the US, and the demise of its Constitution; I was reminded of another famous quote by John Adams, seen in the above image (copied from here; click on the image to enlarge). John Adams (1734-1826) was one of the Founding Fathers of America, one of the framers of the Constitution. He was also a signatory of the Declaration of Independence; and also the second President of the United States, following George Washington. Here is a longer quote of what he said:

“… because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (John Adams, 11 October, 1798) Link

That was said nearly 200 years ago; and the prophecy is now being fulfilled. There are too many intelligent people in the US who are now recognizing this. I had shown one interesting video relating to the subject in my previous post; here is one more:

And there is lots more. The US is falling off the cliff fast, and a lot of people are recognizing this. And Donald Trump is going down in history as the man who finally pulled the plug.

The US Being Led to Self-destruction!

 

According to the FORTUNE article pictured above (click or tap on the image to enlarge), quote:

“THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS SPENDING $88 BILLION A MONTH IN INTEREST ON NATIONAL DEBT—EQUAL TO SPENDING ON DEFENSE AND EDUCATION COMBINED”

That is insane. See here for the “national debt”; and see here for an earlier blog post that I had written on the same subject some months ago. And instead of trying to fix it, and find a solution to the problem, they are making it far worse by spending trillions more US $s on endless wars—which Donald Trump was elected, by his own promise, to put an end to.

The US Constitution was originally designed to create a system of government that was “of the people, by the people, for the people” (Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address, 1863) link. Now it is anything but! It is now a system of government led by a bunch of oligarchs who are acting for their own self-interests rather than that of the US or the “people”; and who are now leading it to its ultimate self-destruction. The following video by Glenn Diesen provides some more insights into the subject. The video is titled: “Lawrence Wilkerson: Ceasefire Fails, NATO Died & the U.S. Risks Civil War”:

And here is the auto-generated video summary:

In this discussion, retired U.S. Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson provides a critical assessment of the current state of global geopolitics, specifically focusing on the failure of diplomacy in the Middle East and the decline of American influence.

Key Takeaways:

• The Ceasefire and the Middle East Crisis: Wilkerson expresses deep pessimism regarding the current ceasefire, noting that it appears to be failing due to Benjamin Netanyahu’s ongoing military actions in Lebanon (0:35 – 1:49). He suggests that the U.S. remains deeply involved in an unsustainable conflict and that there is little inclination among current leadership to pursue a genuine path to peace (46:15 – 47:25).

• The Death of NATO: Wilkerson argues that NATO is effectively “dead,” having been undermined by shifting global alliances and the U.S.’s failure to integrate Russia into the European security architecture following the Cold War (3:32 – 4:42).

• The Unraveling of the Global Order: The discussion highlights that the post-World War II global framework is collapsing. Wilkerson notes that power is shifting inexorably toward Central and Southwest Asia, driven by land-based economic routes and pipelines rather than maritime supremacy (13:14 – 18:20).

• Internal U.S. Decline and Tribalism: Wilkerson draws parallels between the current decline of the U.S. empire and historical patterns of decay. He criticizes the “preacher packing” of the military with ideologically aligned figures, warning that the U.S. is becoming increasingly tribal, paranoid, and led by ineffective leadership (32:55 – 34:09, 49:55 – 51:08).

• The Risk of Escalation: Both Wilkerson and the host express concern that the current path—both in the Middle East and regarding Russia—is leading toward inevitable, potentially nuclear, conflict that will leave the entire globe worse off (32:00 – 32:15, 55:58 – 56:15).

Best of luck for the US!

LDS Versus Calvinism Debate

 

I noticed the above debate between James White (Calvinist), and Jacob Hansen (LDS). It is a long video, over two hours long, and it would be a bit tedious to attempt to unpack it all, and discuss it in detail; so I am going to focus on two main points raised therein. The first relates to Joseph Smith’s teaching that God the Father was once a man who progressed to become God! In other words, he wasn’t always God! James White objects to that, on the grounds that the Bible teaches that God is eternal, and has always been God!—to which Jacob Hansen does not appear to be able to give a good answer. James White is not the only one of course who has raised that objection; lots of other people have—including Kelly Powers, in some of his recent videos. There is, however, an answer to that objection, from the LDS point of view.

The Bible does indeed teach that God is “eternal” (1 Timothy 1:17), “everlasting” (Genesis 21:33; Psalm 90:2), and “unchanging” (Malachi 3:6); he is the great “I Am” (Exodus 3:14); he is “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Revelation 22:13). That is how the Bible describes God—which oddly enough, is also how modern LDS scripture describes God. He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Moroni 7:22); he is “the same yesterday, today, and forever”, without “variableness” or “shadow of changing” (Mormon 9:9); he is not “changeable”, is “from all eternity to all eternity” (Moroni 8:18); he is “Alpha and Omega”, the “beginning and the end”; he is “endless” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:1, 4); his “paths are straight”, and his course is “one eternal round” (Doctrine and Covenants 3:2). So modern LDS scripture agrees absolutely with the Bible on the divine attributes of infinity, eternity, everlastingness etc.

So how do we reconcile Joseph Smith’s teaching on the subject, with what is taught in the Bible, as well as in modern LDS scripture? Well, there is an answer to that question. The answer is given in the following passages in LDS scripture. LDS scripture does indeed teach that men can be deified, they can become “gods”. Those who are exalted to the celestial kingdom are deified, they become divine, they become “gods”; and when they are, they acquire the same divine attributes. They acquire all the divine attributes of infinity, eternity, everlastingness etc. In other words, those are divine attributes that can be acquired. Here is the scripture that provides the key to solving that problem:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

The finite human mind may find it difficult to wrap itself around that idea; but that is man’s problem, not God’s. The fact that man cannot comprehend everything that God can comprehend, is man’s problem, not God’s problem. The Book of Mormon teaches that God exists outside of time: 

Alma 40:

8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

That is what makes God “infinite” and “eternal”, from “everlasting to everlasting” etc.; and “eternally God”. He exists outside of time; he is not limited, or constrained by time; he is timeless. And those are divine attributes that can be acquired by man. When man is deified, and placed outside of time by God (where God himself is), then man also acquires the same divine attributes that God possesses—infinity, eternity, and everlastingness etc. That is the answer to James White’s question—and others who have raised the same question. It is possible for mortal, temporal man to acquire and possess the same divine attributes that God possesses—infinity, eternity, and everlastingness; which also explains how God himself was once a man who progressed to become God. That is the first point that I wanted to address.

The second point I wanted to address relates to Jacob Hansen’s suggestion that the global flood in the days of Noah, which destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth except Noah and his immediate descendants, as recorded in the Bible, is not really true, and did not really happen. He had previously raised similar objections to other Old Testament accounts, such as God’s commandment to the Israelites to completely destroy and exterminate the Canaanites, and other inhabitants of the lands which they were to conquer (Deuteronomy 7:1-2; 20:16-17); and also later on the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:1-3)—his argument being that these commandments were immoral and unethical (from his point of view), and therefore could not have originated from a kind, loving, and merciful God. Well he speaks for himself. That is not the official position of the LDS Church, with regard to those biblical accounts. Those events occurred as described in the Old Testament. I had previously discussed those issues raised by him in my other blog posts, therefore there is no need to discuss them again here. But the point to note is that he speaks for himself, not for the Church. The LDS Church accepts the biblical account.