Frank Turek and Brady Blevins on Mormonism!

 

I noticed the above video in which Frank Turek interviews Brady Blevins (both LDS critics) about the beliefs and teachings of Latter-day Saints. At around 6 minutes into the video Frank poses the question:

Frank: Why is the Mormon church trying to transition from being referred to as Mormons? … Why are they trying to transition to LDS? Where does this all come from?

To which Brady Blevins gives the following answer:

Brady: Well, the word Mormon, I mean, obviously you have the Book of Mormon, and the character Mormon is a hero … but why they are distancing from it, you know, that is kind of a hard question to answer. I know what the answer is according to the Church. But the confusing part of this is that for one … they came out and said, listen, we shouldn’t take the name of Jesus, and cut it out of who we are.

Firstly, that is not a “hard question” to answer at all; and the answer he suggests as “the answer according to the Church” is not correct either. Obviously he doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. He then continues:

Brady: And they are really trying to push towards this, like, Evangelical sounding, you know, set of words. But the problem is that their church hasn’t always been called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In fact, there were times it was just called the Church of Christ. Then it was changed later …

Wrong again, altogether wrong! Obviously he doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. It has always been called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”—by the specific revelation and commandment of the Lord—through none other than the Prophet Joseph Smith himself. Here are the references:

Doctrine and Covenants 115:

4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. [From revelation given through the Prophet Joseph Smith in April 26, 1838]

Doctrine and Covenants 127:

12 Behold, my prayer to God is that you all may be saved. And I subscribe myself your servant in the Lord, prophet and seer of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. [From an epistle written by the Prophet Joseph Smith in September 1, 1842]

Doctrine and Covenants 128:

21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. [From epistle written by the Prophet Joseph Smith in September 7, 1842]

Doctrine and Covenants 136:

2 Let all the people of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and those who journey with them, be organized into companies, with a covenant and promise to keep all the commandments and statutes of the Lord our God”. [From revelation given through the President Brigham Young, Joseph Smith’s successor, in January 14, 1847]

Then the following exchange takes place between Frank Turek and Brady Blevins:

Frank: Wait, wait, wait. But did they change the Book of Mormon to the Book of Latter-day Saints?

Brady: No, not at all.

Frank: Then what is the point? What do they say is the official reason, that they want to get away from the word Mormon, when they are claiming there is an angel by the name of Moroni, and there is a book that we are supposed to add to the Bible called the Book of Mormon? Why are they trying to get away from the name?

The answer is as given above. They are not trying to “get away” from anything. That has always been the “official” name of the Church—as designated by a direct revelation from God, to none other than the Prophet Joseph Smith himself. I am guessing that because it was a long name, some Church members in the earlier history of the Church may have wanted to shorten it for convenience, by substituting the word “Mormon” for the long name—which was not the right thing to do, because the official name was given by revelation from God—and so later on, the leadership of the Church recognised this; and decided, quite rightly, to revert back to the original, official name of the Church, as given by revelation from God. Skipping further comments by Brady, the following exchange takes place:

Frank: Well, yeah that is a problem. I am wondering if it is just the fact that they want to be seen as another Christian denomination, and to take the word Mormon out would help them do that, to say we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But of course, their Jesus Christ in their theology is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible. And if they are just another Christian denomination, why are they at my door, Brady?

Brady: Exactly!

Exactly wrong! On all accounts! The LDS Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is certainly not part of, or an extension of, “mainstream Christianity”; nor is it attempting to identify itself as such. The LDS claim is that the original Christian church apostatised, and lost the Priesthood, Prophetic, and Apostolic authority that it originally possessed, which needed to be Restored. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Restoration, by revelation, by prophecy, and by the ministration of angels, of that original and true Church—possessing all the Priesthood, Prophetic, and the Apostolic authority of the original Church—including the ability to receive revelation; lead, guide, and direct the Church by revelation; and add scripture to the Canon. Frank then continues:

Frank: You know, if they come to my door and I say, “Well, yeah, I am a Christian.” And they say, “Well, we are Christians, too.” Okay, have a nice day! Hey, what else do we need to talk about? Right? But no, they want to bring in a new book, or several books. They want to bring in new theology. … But the theology that they are bringing forward is not theism, it is polytheism.

Talking a whole load of nonsense. First of all, when Latter-day Saints identify themselves as “Christian”, it is according to the biblical definition of the word “Christian”, not his definition. The biblical definition of a Christian is someone who is a true disciple, a follower of Jesus Christ:

Acts 11:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

That is the biblical definition of the word “Christian”. When Latter-day Saints identify themselves as “Christians”, it is in accordance with the biblical definition, not his definition. It means that we identify ourselves as true followers and disciples of Jesus Christ (by believing in him, and keeping his commandments). It doesn’t mean that we want to be identified as part of his mainstream, apostate Christianity, where he belongs. Secondly, we certainly believe in and follow the biblical Jesus; he is the one who doesn’t. If he followed the biblical Jesus, he would recognise and join the true Church that Jesus has established in the last days: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—and not oppose it and fight against it, like he does. And lastly, Latter-day Saints are very much monotheists. We worship the one true God of the Bible. Belief in the deification of man, or theosis, was a well established doctrine in the early Christian Church, and was believed in by all the Early Church Fathers (link). It doesn’t mean that we become supreme beings independent of God the Father, or his Son Jesus Christ. We become divine, deified; but we remain subject to, and subordinate to them; and continue to worship them for the rest of eternity as our God.

For the rest of the conversation, he raises several silly objections, or asks dumb questions, that would be too tedious to attempt to unpack and discuss in detail; so I will briefly mention a few points. At about 30 minutes into the video he brings up Galatians 18: “Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preach to you, let them be under God’s curse” (his quote). The answer to that is that LDS theology is not “another gospel”; it is the gospel that Jesus taugh. It is his heretical, false, apostate theology that is “another gospel”.

At around 45 minutes into the video Frank raises this objection:

Frank: So, here is a question that I have asked several times, and I haven’t gotten a good answer: Why do they think gold plates are a miracle? Because gold plates I could make, if I had the right materials, in my garage.

That is the dumbest question ever! You have to be a genius in stupidity to ask such a dumb question! The “miracle” is in how Joseph Smith obtained the plates—by means of an angelic visitation—not the “plates” themselves. The “miracle” is also in how Joseph Smith translated the plates—by the gift and power of God—not the “plates” themselves. That is where the “miracle” lies.

He also raises the question of why the “plates” were not preserved, as evidence for the Book of Mormon. There is two answers to that: The first is that Joseph Smith was constantly being harassed by hostile elements who wanted to obtain the plates from him, which would have made it impossible for him to preserve them. The second answer is that even if the plates were preserved, if you are disinclined to believe, you would still not believe, even if the plates were preserved. Religion is ultimately a matter of faith, belief, not “evidence”. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16); not “He that has evidence”.

 

And finally, at around 50 into the video, Frank asks a question from Brady about the idea of “praying” to know if “Mormonism is true”. This is what he says:

Frank: Let me just ask you one other question. … The question that often is asked by Mormons to non-believers is, you know, “pray that you get the burning in the bosom, and it will tell you if … Mormonism is true”. It is a very subjective test. But do we do the same thing when we like to refer to the witness of the Holy Spirit? Like, what would you say to that?

To this question then Brady gives a very disjointed and incoherent answer. The correct answer to that question is, firstly, that it is not about “Mormonism”. That is a promise that is contained within the Book of Mormon itself, and it is specifically about the Book of Mormon. Here is the quote:

Moroni 10:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things [Book  of  Mormon], if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

That is a promise that is contained within the Book of Mormon, and it is specifically about the Book of Mormon; it is not about “Mormonism”. And it is about prayerfully reading the Book of Mormon, not just “praying” about it. And the promise is affirmed by the Bible:

John 15:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

If these folks have a problem with that, then their problem is with the Bible, and with the words of Jesus, not with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is true. It is the word of God; no question about it. And the Holy Ghost bears witness to its truth. If it is read sincerely, impartially, and prayerfully, without prejudice, and with a genuine desire to know of its truth, that truth will be revealed and made known to all sincere seekers after truth, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

From LDS Faith to Born Again Christianity!

 

I noticed the above video in which Mitz Nelson, a former LDS convert to Evangelical Christianity, describes her conversation experience. I am going to comment briefly on what she says towards the end of the video. At about 44:21 minutes into the video, in connection with her childhood experience, having been born and raised in an LDS family, she says:

“I was told what I believed, and then I was supposed to believe what they told me I believed, and I did to a point.”

Well, that doesn’t apply to everyone. It doesn’t apply to me for example. I am a convert to the Church; and nobody told me what to believe, and what not to believe. I read the Book of Mormon for myself—independent of what anyone else thinks or believes—and gained a divine witness of its truth for myself, by the power of the Holy Ghost, and that is what led me to the LDS Church. Then she continues:

“I did the rhetoric; I was able to regurgitate the rhetoric; but within hindsight, I didn’t believe anything I was saying, because it didn’t stand on anything. It was on fallow ground, because it didn’t stand on the rock. There was no cornerstone. There was no truth in it.”

I cannot speak for her experience, because she was born into the Church, and I am a convert. But from my point of view, in either case, whether you are born in the Church or a later convert, no one can remain faithful to the Church in the long run, without gaining a divine witness of its truth, by personal revelation for themselves, by the power of the Holy Ghost—which is primarily obtained through a prayerful reading of the Book of Mormon. That is the primary reason why it was given, to stand as a divine witness to the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, and the restoration of the gospel, the restoration of God’s true Church, by revelation through him. Whether one is born into the Church, or is a later convert, one cannot remain faithful to the Church without obtaining that divine witness, that divine testimony, for oneself, at some point in their lives—independent of what other people think or believe. Then she continues:

“And so that was another thing; he [her husband] picked apart my testimony, bit by bit. He said, ‘Okay, you know this church is true; how do you know? You know Joseph Smith was a prophet; how do you know? Do you know, or do you think you know?’”

Good question. The answer is, By the witness of the Spirit. As I read the Book of Mormon, the Holy Ghost witnesses to me that it is true, and divinely inspired word of God like the Bible. That in turn convinces me that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and that he established by revelation God’s true Church. The same question can be asked about her own religious convictions. How does she know that Jesus Chrust was the Savior and Redeemer of the world? How does she know that he atoned for the sins of the world through the shedding of his own blood? Just because it says so in the Bible, it doesn’t prove that it must be. There are millions of people in the world who do not have that conviction. The answer is, by the witness of the Spirit; that is the only way that anyone can know, or be convinced. And that is equally true of the Book of Mormon; and of the restoration of the gospel, the restoration of God’s true Church, by revelation through the prophet Joseph Smith in our time. That witness is obtained through the prayerful reading of the Book of Mormon. Then she continues:

“And the difference in what was given to me as a testimony, and my testimony now, is not even the same thing.”

If her testimony of the LDS Church, of the restored gospel, was “given” to her by someone else (presumably by her parents), then it was not a genuine testimony—until she had obtained one by personal revelation to herself. A true testimony of the restored Church, the restored gospel, can only be obtained by a personal revelation from God, by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, to oneself. Parents can convince their children; but it will not be enough to guide them throughout their lives. They need to obtain that divine witness ultimately for themselves, at some point in their lives. Then she continues:

“And that is why if you [as non-LDS Christian] get a chance to share your testimony [with LDS folks], so that they can see that your testimony is not about a corporation; you are not your testimony; you are not testifying about a building, or an ordinance, or a feeling.”

That is amusing. The LDS “testimony” is not about a “building”, or a “corporation”, or a “feeling”. It is about the witness of the Spirit, the testimony of the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet; that he established by revelation God’s true Church; and that the Book of Mormon is the divinely inspired word of God; a book of ancient scripture like the Bible. It is the prayerful reading of the Book of Mormon that ultimately confirms that Joseph Smith was a true prophet; and that he established by revelation God’s true Church. And finally she says:

“You are testifying about the blood of Jesus, and what you know that he did for you, and that is huge, and they need to hear that.”

Two issues with that statement. Firstly, how does she know, is assured, convinced, of the efficacy of the sacrificial death, Atonement, Redemption, and blood of Jesus Christ? The answer is, by the witness of the Spirit, by faith. There is no other way that that truth can be known, or one can be converted or convinced. And that is equally true of the testimony of the restoration of the gospel, the restoration of God’s true Church, in the last days by Jesus Christ, by revelation, through his chosen prophet Joseph Smith.

Secondly the LDS Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has no issue whatsoever with the sacrificial death, Atonement, Redemption, and the shedding of blood of Jesus Christ; to bring about the remission of sins, and salvation and redemption of mankind, through faith and repentance, and obedience to his commandments for the rest of one’s life. That is the central foundation of the LDS Church and belief; and it is more strongly affirmed in modern LDS scripture, notably in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, than it is in the Bible. That is why it is important to read prayerfully the Book of Mormon, with a genuine and sincere desire to know of its truth, by means of a personal revelation from God; with a commitment to remain true to that witness, once it is received, to the end of one’s life.

Ex Mo Baptist Wrongly Criticizes LDS Beliefs!

  

 

I came across the above video in which Hayden Carrol interviews a former LDS convert to Protestantism, in which he explains his theological disagreements with LDS beliefs and practices, and focuses on John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life”; arguing that once you have “believed,” all is done, end of the story! You are unconditionally, instantly, eternally, irreversibly, and everlastingly, redeemed and “saved”; nothing else needs to be done or happen after that for one to be saved. He states, at around 15 minutes into the video: “That is nowhere in LDS theology.” The problem with that argument is that, firstly, John 6:47 is very much part of the LDS scriptural canon, and therefore is fully accepted by the LDS Church. It is his interpretation of it that is in dispute. Secondly, John 6:47 is not the only verse in the Bible that talks about gaining salvation and eternal life; there are many more; all of which need to be taken into account. It is easy to misinterpret the Bible by focusing on one or two isolated verses that can be misconstrued in a certain way, and turning a blind eye on the rest which, if taken into account, rectifies the error. Here are many more Bible verses that talk about gaining salvation and eternal life, which tell a somewhat different story. First from the words of Jesus himself, followed by other biblical writers:

Matthew 19:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

• • •

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matthew 24:

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end [i.e. remains true to the faith, true to the gospel], the same shall be saved.

Matthew 25:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 10:

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mark 13:

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure [persecution] unto the end [i.e. not apostatize, fall away], the same shall be saved.

Luke 10:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 18:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

• • •

29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake,

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

John 3:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

• • •

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

• • •

36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but [labour] for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

• • •

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 12:

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

• • •

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 17:

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 13:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Romans 10:

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 7:

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Galatians 6:

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith..

Philippians 1:

19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Philippians 2:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 2:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 6:

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

• • •

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Peter 4:

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God [true believers]: and if it [judgement] first begin at us [true believers], what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous [Christians, saints, believers] scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Jude 1:

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

The Bible does not contradict itself. These verses (and many others that could be given) contradict his interpretation of John 6:47. “Believing” alone doesn’t save, unless it is combined with “doing”. “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22). “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21). The gospel of Jesus Christ is all about doing, not just hearing or believing.

The Bible is a big book. It is not just one or two verses. You take all of it into account when interpreting the verses in it; not take one or two isolated verses that suits your purpose, and ignore the rest. There are far more Bible verses that link salvation and eternal life to doing good, to repenting of our sins, and to keeping God’s commandments; than there are to just faith or belief; such as John 5:28-29 for example. According to Romans 2:6-16; Acts 10:34-35, one doesn’t even need to be a “Christian” to be saved. Unbelieving pagans, who out of a good conscience do what is good and right, will be saved; whereas believing Christians, who do evil (and don’t repent), will be damned.