Ex Mo Baptist Wrongly Criticizes LDS Beliefs!

  

 

I came across the above video in which Hayden Carrol interviews a former LDS convert to Protestantism, in which he explains his theological disagreements with LDS beliefs and practices, and focuses on John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life”; arguing that once you have “believed,” all is done, end of the story! You are unconditionally, instantly, eternally, irreversibly, and everlastingly, redeemed and “saved”; nothing else needs to be done or happen after that for one to be saved. He states, at around 15 minutes into the video: “That is nowhere in LDS theology.” The problem with that argument is that, firstly, John 6:47 is very much part of the LDS scriptural canon, and therefore is fully accepted by the LDS Church. It is his interpretation of it that is in dispute. Secondly, John 6:47 is not the only verse in the Bible that talks about salvation and eternal life; there are many more; all of which need to be taken into account. It is easy to misinterpret the Bible by focusing on one or two isolated verses that can be misconstrued in a certain way, and turning a blind eye on the rest which, if taken into account, rectifies the error. Here are many more Bible verses that talk about gaining salvation and eternal life, which tell a somewhat different story. First from the words of Jesus himself, followed by other writers:

Matthew 19:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

• • •

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matthew 24:

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end [i.e. remains true to the faith, true to the gospel], the same shall be saved.

Matthew 25:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 10:

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mark 13:

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure [persecution] unto the end [i.e. not apostatize, fall away], the same shall be saved.

Luke 10:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 18:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

• • •

29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake,

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

John 3:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

• • •

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

• • •

36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

• • •

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 12:

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

• • •

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 17:

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 13:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Romans 10:

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 7:

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Galatians 6:

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith..

Philippians 1:

19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Philippians 2:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 2:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 6:

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

• • •

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Peter 4:

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God [true believers]: and if it [judgement] first begin at us [true believers], what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous [Christians, saints, believers] scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Jude 1:

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

The Bible does not contradict itself. These verses (and many others that could be given) contradict his interpretation of John 6:47. “Believing” alone doesn’t save, unless it is combined with “doing” what is good and right. “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22). “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

The Bible is a big book. It is not just one verse. You take all of it into account when interpreting the verses in it; not take one or two isolated verses that suits your purpose, and ignore the rest. There are far more Bible verses that link salvation and eternal life to doing good, to repenting of our sins, and to keeping God’s commandments; than there are to just faith or belief; such as John 5:28-29 for example. According to Romans 2:6-16; Acts 10:34-35, one doesn’t even need to be a “Christian” to be saved. Unbelieving pagans, who out of a good conscience do what is good and right, will be saved; whereas believing Christians, who do evil (and don’t repent), will be damned.

Apostasy and Restoration — LDS View!

I came across the above video in which Jeff Durbin, of Apologia Studios, finds fault with comments made by Jacob Hansen, of Thoughtful Faith channel, regarding the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy of the early Christian church; which resulted eventually in the restoration of the gospel, the restoration of God’s true Church, through the prophet Joseph Smith in 1830, known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Jacob Hansen’s argument is that the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy does not mean that all Christians lost their faith, and that there were no more true, faithful, believing Christians left in the world who had a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It relates to the loss of the priesthood, prophetic, and Apostolic authority of the original church; which was lost, and needed to be restored. That is his point, with which Jeff Durbin (anti-Mormon), and David Alexander (LDS) disagree! Their main argument starts at around 17:33 minutes into the video, starting with Jeff Durbin’s remarks; followed by his quotes from David Alexander, agreeing with Jeff Durbin on those points.

I am not a fan of Jacob Hansen, nor of David Alexander (and certainly not of Jeff Durbin!). But I am going to have to agree with Jacob Hansen on this point. The LDS doctrine of the Apostasy of the early Christian Church does not mean that all Christians lost their faith, and there were no more true, faithful, believing Christians left in the world who had a saving faith in Jesus Christ. That is not what LDS scripture teaches, neither did Joseph Smith ever teach such a doctrine, nor is it the official position of the LDS Church. The Book of Mormon teaches that in the last days, God is going to restore his true gospel, his true Church and religion, among the Gentiles, rather than among the house of Israel, because the Gentiles believe in him, and the house of Israel don’t:

3 Nephi 16:

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;

If the Gentiles still “believe in Jesus”, sufficient to win God’s favor and approval, and the restoration of God’s true Church by revelation among them (rather than among the house of Israel, God’s ancient covenant people); then the Gentiles can’t all have “lost their faith”, as these guys like to suggest is the theological position of the LDS Church. And likewise in the Doctrine and Covenants we have the following:

Doctrine and Covenants 10:

53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation [of Gentiles] harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church [which already exists among the Gentiles]; but I say this to build up my church [which already exists among the Gentiles];

55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church [which already exists among the Gentiles] need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain [e.g. Jeff Durbin and the like], yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble, and shake to the center.

57 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not.

58 I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

59 I am he who said—Other sheep have I which are not of this fold—unto my disciples [John 10:16], and many there were that understood me not.

60 And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep [i.e. the peoples of the Book of Mormon], and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob;

61 And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name;

62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received [i.e. the gospel which already existed among the Gentiles], but they shall build it up [i.e. build up the gospel which already existed among the Gentiles], and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.

Thus God acknowledges the existence of his true church (in a non-denominational sense, referring to all true, faithful, believing Christians in the world, regardless of their particular religious affiliation or denomination) among the Gentiles at the time, before the Restoration takes place—and that they will be saved. A “church” is ultimately a “body of believers”, which existed at the time—although it did not have the fullness of the priesthood, prophetic, and Apostolic authority of the original church, which needed to be restored. The word “church” is used in that context in a generic, non-denominational sense, referring to all true, faithful, believing Christians in the world who have a saving faith in Jesus Christ—regardless of their particular denomination. The fact that they may have also theologically erred on some points is not terribly important, as long as they had a sincere faith or belief in Jesus Christ. We also have this interesting quote from another revelation received by the prophet Joseph Smith:

Doctrine and Covenants 137:

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel [restored through Joseph Smith], who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

The only thing that needs to be added here is that when young Joseph Smith (14 years old) went into the woods to ask God which church was right, and which one to join, he was referring specifically to the churches belonging to those Protestant teachers and preachers who had created the “religious excitement” in the region where he lived, that he speaks of, who had aroused his interest and inquiry; he was not referring to every single Christian church or religion on the planet, as it is often portrayed. Similarly, when God condemns the teachers, preachers, and ministers of religion that he speaks of in that vision, he was referring to the same phenomenon. He was referring specifically to the Protestant teachers, preachers, and ministers of religion that Joseph had encountered, who had created the “religious excitement” that he speaks of, in the region where he lived at the time—and whom he was inquiring about—as the context makes clear. He was not referring to every single Christian teacher, preacher, and minister of religion on the planet, as it is often suggested. Here is the quote of what God actually said to Joseph Smith:

Joseph Smith–History 1:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” Link

And likewise when the “creeds” of the churches are condemned in the same vision, it is referring specifically to the Protestant creeds and confessions of those teachers, preachers, and ministers of religion. It is not referring to every single creed in the history of Christendom, such as the Apostles’ Creed of the second century for example, or the Nicene creed of the fourth century etc. After the Protestant Reformation, the Protestant churches had created for themselves a wide range of creeds and confessions to distinguish themselves from the Catholic Church, as well as from other Protestant churches; and that is what the Lord was referring to at the time.

More anti-Mormonism From Kelly Powers!

 

I noticed the above video from Kelly Powers, in which he again engages in his favourite activity of Mormon bashing and anti-Mormonism! His comments contain too many inconsistencies, which would be a bit tedious to discuss in detail; so I will confine it to a few main highlights. In this video he again focuses on the LDS doctrine of the Melchizedek Priesthood, claiming that it is not biblical (which I had previously discussed in an earlier blog post here; therefore it is not necessary to discuss it in detail again in this post). His main argument is that the LDS doctrine of the priesthood is not taught in the Bible—which is not a reasonable argument. It may not be directly taught in the Bible; but it does not contradict what is in the Bible either; that is the main point. The LDS doctrine of the origin of the Melchizedek Priesthood is taught in the following passage of LDS scripture:

Doctrine and Covenants 84:

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy [Melchizedek] Priesthood which he [Moses] received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro;

7 And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb;

8 And Caleb received it under the hand of Elihu;

9 And Elihu under the hand of Jeremy;

10 And Jeremy under the hand of Gad;

11 And Gad under the hand of Esaias;

12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.

13 Esaias also lived in the days of Abraham, and was blessed of him—

14 Which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah;

15 And from Noah till Enoch, through the lineage of their fathers;

16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother; who received the [Melchizedek] priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

17 Which [Melchizedek] priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.

18 And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations, which priesthood also continueth and abideth forever with the [Melchizedek] priesthood, which is after the holiest order of God.

19 And this greater [Melchizedek] priesthood administereth the gospel, and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the [Melchizedek] priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this [higher priesthood], no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy [Melchizedek] Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser [Aaronic] priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

That is what the Lord has revealed in modern LDS scripture about the role of the Priesthood—in both ancient biblical times, as well as in modern times—and there is no contradiction between that and what is taught in the Bible. It simply tells us more about it. More information is not the same as a “contradiction”. Kelly Powers likes to portray that as some kind of “contradiction”, which of course it is not.

He has also pointed out to verse 22 above: “For without this [higher priesthood], no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live”; arguing that it contradicts the Joseph Smith’s account of the First Vision, where God the Father and the Son appeared to young Joseph in a vision in the grove, in response to his prayers, before he had received the priesthood. That is not a valid argument either. That scripture, Doctrine and Covenants 84:22, refers to seeing God in an ecclesiastical capacity, as a church officer, administering officially in the affairs of the church. Joseph Smith was an exception to that rule. He was not acting in an official capacity, as a church officer, when he went to the woods to inquire of the Lord to know which church was right, and which one to join. He was a young, 14 year old farm boy, wanting to know for himself which church was true. Kelly has also quoted the following verses:

Galatians 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Arguing that the LDS Church is, or teaches “another gospel”! Not correct. The LDS Church teaches the true gospel, the same that was taught by Paul. It is his perverse Evangelical heresy that is “another gospel”. The following verses from modern LDS scripture will give him something more to think about:

Doctrine and Covenants 68:

8 Go ye into all the world, preach the [restored] gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:

28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my [restored] gospel unto every creature who has not received it;

29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

Doctrine and Covenants 1:

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

Someday he will learn and know for himself that Mormonism is true, Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and he established by revelation God’s true Church. He can know that truth now, be converted, and be saved; or wait until judgement day, be informed, and condemned. The choice is his.