Discussing Mormonism!

I came across the above Q&A video in which George Grant, Voddie Bauchman, Michael Morales, R.C. Sproul, and R.C. Sproul Jr. answer gospel questions, moderated by Chris Larson. At 38:57 minutes into the video the following dialog takes place between RC Sproul and Voddie Bauchman. R.C. Sproul begins the conversation by addressing Bauchman as follows:

Sproul: “What about down there in Texas, they are saying, some of these Southern Baptist preachers of yours are saying, that Mormonism is a cult!”

Bauchman: “Some of these southern Baptist Preachers of mine! Yeah! Those guys I identify with!” 

Sproul: “When I was a student, we used to study the cults, and every book that I studied about the cults included Mormonism in it … because of its fundamental denial of the Deity of Christ. But boy, if anything is politically incorrect now!” 

Bauchman: “Isn’t it interesting though, we have gone from a place where, if you look at, for example, original documents, early documents, from the settlement here, even before you know the Declaration of Independence, if you look at those original documents, the question would not have been, Are you willing to, you know, not call Mormonism a cult? But the question would have been, Are you willing to acknowledge Jesus Christ; and that all of the things outside of him would be a cult? We have come full circle in that. It just seems bizarre that now we are willing to cut people off if they are not willing to say, It is okay for a man to believe that, you know, Elohim had sex with Mary; you know, Jesus was a product of that; he had three wives, they had multiple children; and that you, if you are a good Mormon, will eventually go and inhabit your own planet, and through infinite celestial sex you will populate that planet, and be your own Christ on your own planet. And now we have people in the press who are pulling microphones in the faces of candidates and saying, I dare you to call that a cult! And they are saying, Nozebalz! We won’t do that!”

Firstly, in answer to R.C. Sproul (he is not with us anymore, but for the benefit of those who may agree with him), they should know that the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ is taught more unambiguously and affirmatively in the Book of Mormon (and in other LDS scriptures) than it is anywhere in the Bible. LDS scripture and revelation, as well as the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not only does not “deny the Deity of Christ,” but affirms it more strongly, and discusses it more intelligently and meaningfully than it is done anywhere in the Bible. I have already discussed that subject (with quotes and references) in my previous post, which can be seen here. It is a blatant falsehood and a wicked lie to allege that the restored Church of Jesus Christ “denies the Deity of Christ”. LDS scripture and revelation affirms it more strongly than it is done anywhere in the Bible. See my previous post for examples.

Secondly, in answer to Voddie Bauchman’s comments, every single one of the doctrines that he has attributed to the restored Church of Jesus Christ is a false attribution. Not one of them is true LDS doctrine. That is not what the restored Church teaches. True LDS doctrine is to be found in LDS scripture and revelation, which includes the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price; and no such doctrines are found in any of them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-day Saints does not teach any of the things that he has attributed to it. Why they would want to perpetrate such blatant falsehoods and lies against the restored Church of Jesus Christ, is a question for them to answer. But I don’t see how it will be doing them any good.

For R.C. Sproul, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think that in his case, it was a matter of genuine ignorance rather than anything else. But I don’t think I would be equally generous towards the rest. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. The Book of Mormon is a book of ancient scripture and word of God. It is a revelation from God. It teaches the doctrine of the Deity of Christ more strongly than the Bible does. It teaches, affirms, and clarifies many Christian doctrines better than the Bible does. It resolves many theological ambiguities that in the Bible are left unclear. It is unquestionably the word of God and a revelation from God; and those who reject it will be condemned unless they repent.

Deity of Messiah Debate

I came across the above debate on the Deity of Christ, between the advocates of Trinitarianism and Unitarianism which I thought was interesting. The video comes in three parts, merged together. The transition between the three parts takes place at 1:13:52 and 2:12:29 hours into the video. The debate is hosted by Jonathan Bernis, President & CEO of Jewish Voice Ministries International, who moderates the debate in fairness and good humor. The video was originally published around 2011, copies of which can be found in several places on the Internet, all of them having low resolutions, and some of them showing only part of the debate. This is the best copy that I could find. The video was a little too dark, so I used YouTube’s video enhancement technologies to increase the brightness and contrast, and make it look brighter and better.

It is a lengthy debate, lasting a little over two and half hours, and to give it a detailed response would take too long, and would be too tedious to attempt. The only point I would like to make with reference to it is that the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ is taught more completely, comprehensively, convincingly, explicitly, compellingly, and unambiguously in the Book of Mormon (and in other modern scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) than it is in the Bible. Here are the references (punctuation revised):

Book of Mormon Title page:

… And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.

1 Nephi 19:

10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him; yea the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man into the hands of wicked men, …

2 Nephi 10:

3 Wherefore as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.
4 For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations, they would repent, and know that he be their God. (c.f. Matt. 11:20–24; 12:41–42; Luke 10:13–14; 11:31–32; John 15:24)

2 Nephi 11:

7 For if there be no Christ, there be no God; and if there be no God, we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ; and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

2 Nephi 26:

12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:

5 For behold the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, …

Mosiah 7:

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things; and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

Mosiah 13:

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

• • •

32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.

33 For behold, did not Moses prophesy unto them concerning the coming of the Messiah, and that God should redeem his people? Yea, and even all the prophets who have prophesied ever since the world began—have they not spoken more or less concerning these things?

34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?

35 Yea, and have they not said also that he should bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, and that he, himself, should be oppressed and afflicted?

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

Mosiah 16:

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Mosiah 27:

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; …

Alma 11:

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

3 Nephi 11:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

Ether 3:

17 And now as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written; therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites;

18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.

D&C 1:

24 Behold I am God, and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

D&C 19:

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

D&C 35:

1 Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.
2 I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, …
• • •
8 For I am God, and mine arm is not shortened; and I will show miracles, signs, and wonders, unto all those who believe on my name.

D&C 38:

1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven before the world was made;
2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes.
3 I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.

D&C 39:

1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—
2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

D&C 63:

6 Wherefore verily I say, let the wicked take heed, and let the rebellious fear and tremble, and let the unbelieving hold their lips; for the day of wrath shall come upon them as a whirlwind, and all flesh shall know that I am God.

D&C 76:

1 Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.
2 Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.
3 His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.
4 From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.

D&C 101:

16 Therefore let your hearts be comforted concerning Zion, for all flesh is in mine hands. Be still and know that I am God.

A Latter-day Saint should have no difficulty defending the doctrine of divinity of Jesus Christ, and his eternal power and Godhead. Nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ taught more explicitly and affirmatively than it is in the Book of Mormon. Likewise the mystery of the Trinity unfolds in the Book of Mormon (and in other modern scriptures of the Church) more meaningfully than it does in the Bible. Here are the references (punctuation revised):

2 Nephi 31:

21 … And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ; and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 … and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit which is one Eternal God, …

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them, I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit or [in other words] the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to temptation, …

Mosiah 16:

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father.

3 Nephi 1:

13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.
14 Behold, I come unto my own to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world; and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son: of the Father because of me [in the spirit], and of the Son because of my flesh.

3 Nephi 11:

27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
• • •
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me, for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

3 Nephi 20:

35 … and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one.

3 Nephi 28:

10 … and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father, and the Father and I are one;

Mormon 9:

12 And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son.

Mormon 7:

7 … to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above; unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost which are one God; in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Ether 3:

14 Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally.

Ether 4:

12 … and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father. I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

D&C 20:

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end.

D&C 93:

2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me [in the spirit] of his fulness; and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.…

• • •

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first [i.e. in the flesh].

JST Luke 10:

23 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. (c.f. Luke 10:22)

For further discussion of these verses see my article here. Two passages of scripture that has caused difficulties of interpretation among the panellists has been the following:

John 1:

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Which appear to be at odds with theophanies recorded or taught in the Bible (Gen. 32:30; Ex. 24:10-11; 33:11; Num. 12:8; Deut. 34:10; Isaiah 6:1; Matt. 5:8; Acts 7:55; 1 John 3:2). In Matthew 5:8, Jesus categorically states that the “pure in heart” shall see God. In the Joseph Smith Translation (JST), also known as the Inspired Version, however, those verses are rendered as follows:

John 1:

19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him, no man can be saved.

1 John 4:

12 No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Which expedites the resolution of the difficulty from the perspective of Latter-day Saints.