How Can a Finite Mind Know an Infinite God

 

More interesting questions from William Lane Craig; here is the transcript:

“I think it’s certainly true that no finite mind can fully comprehend God. He is beyond our full grasp. But that doesn’t imply that we cannot have accurate partial knowledge of God. In fact I don’t have an idea of all of your essential properties, when you think about it, and yet I have a partial and clear grasp of some of them that enable me to relate to you. And I think the same is true of God; we may not fully comprehend him as finite human beings, but we partially do, and do so accurately.”

A more accurate answer to that question would be that scripture (including modern LDS scripture) speaks of three different levels of the “knowledge” of God. The first is knowledge about God, as he has chosen to reveal it to us in scripture. That is a knowledge of his character, perfections, glory, and attributes. The second is knowing God personally, as he may choose to reveal himself to us individually on a personal level, as he did to the ancient prophets and patriarchs. That is a higher level of “knowing God,” than just knowing about God. It is knowing God personally, like a friend. That is how Abraham, Moses, and other ancient prophets and patriarchs came to know God; examples given in my previous blog post. Indeed, Jesus describes salvation and eternal life in terms of “knowing God”:

John 17:

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This is a lot more than just knowing about God. It is knowing God on a personal level, like a friend. And then there is a third level of the knowledge of God; and that is to fully comprehend God, in all his infinite capacity, glory, and fullness. That is also possible in the next life, to those who achieve salvation and exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, and are deified, and acquire divine attributes themselves:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:

49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.

50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

Also the following, from the book of Moses:

Moses 1:

1 The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,

2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

That level of comprehension about God is also possible in the next life, to those who achieve the highest degree of celestial glory. That is the correct theology of knowing God, as well as knowing about God, as revealed in ancient as well as in modern LDS scripture.

“What if We Could See God?” Asks William Craig!

 

William Lane Craig’s “philosophical theology” is now turning into downright heresy!—And getting boring! Here is the video transcript:

“If there were perceptual, sensible evidence of God, then it wouldn’t be the God of the Bible. It would be an idol, some sort of finite being that reflects photons off its physical body so that we could see it, or that sets up sound waves so that we could hear it, and that wouldn’t be God. If you could have a direct, sensible apprehension of God, this would be a finite limited being unworthy of worship. So the fact that God is not perceptible by the five senses is just part and parcel of the greatness of God. He is a transcendent being who has created the physical universe and left traces in the physical universe that make his existence apparent. The great Swiss astronomer Gustav Tammann once said to me that it is as though as physical science explores the universe, we encounter what he called ‘signposts of transcendence’ pointing beyond the physical universe to its ground in a transcendent creator and designer. And I love that metaphor ‘signposts of transcendence,’ and I think that they are abundant in our physical world.”

There is no “what if” about it. According to the Bible, man certainly can see God. The Bible is full of examples of people having “seen God”. Here are some references:

Genesis 18:

1 And the Lord appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Genesis 32:

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 24:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his [God’s] feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Numbers 12:

8 With him [Moses] will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently [i.e. visually, visibly], and not in dark speeches [i.e. hidden, invisibly]; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Deuteronomy 34:

10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

Isaiah 6:

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train [i.e. the hem of his robe, his royal garment] filled the temple.

• • •

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 5:

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

1 John 3:

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 3:

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

In the first quote (Genesis 18) a close reading of the context reveals that one of the “three men” who appeared to Abraham was indeed God himself, and the other two were the two angels who later went on to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (and rescued Lot). God stayed behind, and continued to converse with Abraham; while the two angels left to perform their assigned task. God was on such familiar terms with Abraham that he used to come and visit him at his tent like a guest! That is how Abraham gained the reputation of being the “friend of God” (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). None of the ancient prophets were on such close familiar terms with God as was Abraham—although Moses came close. In the fifth quote (Numbers 12:8), the word “similitude” (KJV Bible) means the actual shape, form, or visual appearance. In other words, Moses saw what God actually looked like. And of course, modern LDS scripture fully confirms this doctrine:

Ether 3:

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Doctrine and Covenants 67:

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Doctrine and Covenants 107:

49 And he [Enoch] saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually; and he walked with God three hundred and sixty-five years, making him four hundred and thirty years old when he was translated.

Moses 7:

4 And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations.

Abraham 3:

11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;

It is true that there are biblical passages that seem to suggest that man cannot see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 6:46; Colossians 1:15); but the correct rule of biblical exegesis is that we take everything that the Bible has said on a given subject, to interpret the doctrine correctly; not to take a few isolated passages, and ignore the rest. When the greater number of Bible verses suggest that man can see God; and a few isolated passages seem to suggest the opposite; we go by the first, and use that to correctly interpret the few isolated passages that appear to say something different. What those other passages indicate is that it is carnal, sinful, natural man that cannot see God; not those who have been sanctified, purified, and made holy, like Abraham, Moses, and many others.

And you can’t do theology with philosophy. That is impossible. It is a self-contradiction. Theology is the knowledge of God; and you can’t know God, or understand anything about God, by “philosophy”. We can only know God, or know about God, to the extent that he has chosen to reveal himself to us in scripture. God either reveals himself, or he remains unknown. Philosophy can provide us with zero information about God, zilch, none! His obsession with philosophy is leading him far astray!

Believing in a God We Cannot See!

 

Another interesting video from William Lane Craig, in which he discusses the (philosophical) basis for belief in God. His narrative begins as follows:

“We all believe in things that are physically undetectable to the five senses, things like black holes, and time, and dark matter, and so forth. So what about God? Is it rational to believe in God? Well, I think the assumption would be that God is undetectable, and I don’t think he is.”

Not quite. There is a difference between God, and things like black holes, dark matter, and time etc. God is an intelligent (and all powerful) being who is capable of revealing himself, or making himself known (in various ways); which those other inanimate objects can’t. Moses had no difficulty believing in God, after his experience at the Burning Bush (Exodus 3)—as well as his subsequent interactions with God. He was a man who “knew God face to face,” like a “friend” (Exodus 33:11), and “the similitude of the Lord shall he behold” (Numbers 12:8). “Similitude” means the actual shape, form, or appearance. He saw what God looked like! And Moses was not the only one in sacred history who had those kinds of direct experiences with God. Abraham was called the “friend of God” (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). There were many others such as Enoch (and his people), Noah and his family, the patriarchs, indeed the whole house of Israel as they were miraculously led out of Egypt, and their experiences with God at Mount Sinai and beyond—not to mention all the subsequent prophets, and their interactions with Israel etc. in their subsequent history—including the New Testament. He continues:

“I think that we have good reasons to believe in God. We infer these entities exist not because we perceive them with our five senses, but because we perceive their effects, and their existence is the best explanation of the effects that we perceive.”

Not quite correct either. “Black holes” and “dark matter” fall more in the realm of scientific theories, rather than proven facts. To those who have experienced God first hand, however, like Moses etc., God is a proven fact. And then we have the option to believe their words and experiences or not. That is how faith is developed, according to the Bible:

Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing … the word of God.

Mark 16:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved …

Nobody becomes a believer or a Christian because of the “cosmological argument”. Faith is developed by hearing the word of God. There is nothing wrong with engaging in philosophical arguments about the existence of God either, as a matter of intellectual curiosity; but it can become counterproductive if it is presented as an alternative to the faith (and insight) generated by the power of the Holy Ghost, in studying the word of God. He continues:

“And in exactly the same way, there are excellent arguments for God’s existence, like the Kalam cosmological argument, the argument from the applicability of mathematics, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, and so forth, which I think point to the existence of God, who cannot be detected by the five senses.”

There is nothing wrong with those as speculative reasonings about the existence of God; but nobody ever gained “faith” in God because of the “Kalam cosmological argument”. Faith comes by “hearing the word of God” (Rom. 10:17). He then concludes:

“So I would say that God is detectable, certainly not physically, but inferentially, insofar as he has left evidence of his existence in the physical universe that we inhabit.”

Those are partial evidences, but not the strongest evidence that leads to faith, salvation, and eternal life. God is detectable first and foremost when he chooses to reveal himself to us, or bear witness to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. Also people as a rule don’t just “believe in God” in isolation; their belief is usually associated with a religious tradition, coupled with a religious text.

“Christian faith” comes from reading the interactions of God with man as recorded in the Bible, both in the Old as well as the New Testaments. Either the story of Moses at Egypt and Sinai really happened, or they didn’t; either the miracles of Joshua and other prophets really happened, or they didn’t. Either the miracles of Jesus, including his resurrection and ascension into heaven really happened, or they didn’t. Either the miracles of his Apostles and disciples later happened, or they didn’t. There is no “evidence” ultimately that “prove” that any of these things actually happened; which provides the atheists, unbelievers, and skeptics all the excuse they need not to believe. But confirmation of them comes to us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Salvation through faith does not come about through the “cosmological argument” etc. Jesus never tried to instill faith in people by some philosophical arguments. God is “detectable” when he chooses to reveal himself to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. He is also detected by the “five senses” when he chooses to reveal himself that way, as he did to biblical prophets and saints, Exodus 24:9-11 being one example. And the same thing applies to the restoration of the gospel in the latter days. Many examples could be given, one will be sufficient:

Doctrine and Covenants 20:

16 For the Lord God has spoken it; and we, the elders of the church, have heard and bear witness to the words of the glorious Majesty on high, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

What Does “Created in God’s Image” Mean?

 

I am having a lot of fun with William Lane Craig! I hope that he is having as much fun with me as I am having with him! I noticed the above video in which he tries to explain what it means in the book of Genesis that God made man “in his own image”. The transcript begins as follows:

“In my book, In Quest of the Historical Adam, I talk about what it means to be created in God’s image; and there are different interpretations of Genesis 1:26 and 27, when it says, ‘Let us make man in our image and likeness;’ and the stubborn fact of the matter is that Genesis doesn’t define what this phrase means. So this is a matter again for philosophical theology to speculate; you can’t answer it on the basis of biblical exegesis.”

He is wrong about that—again! The book of Genesis does explain exactly what it means to be created in the image of God:

Genesis 5:

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The “image and likeness” of Seth to Adam was no different than the “image and likeness” of Adam to God. And in the New Testament we have the following affirmation:

Luke 3:

38 Which [Cainan] was the son of Enos, which [Enos] was the son of Seth, which [Seth] was the son of Adam, which [Adam] was the son of God.

In other words, Adam was “the son of God” no differently than Seth was the son of Adam, or Enos was the son of Seth, or Cainan was the son of Enos etc. All animate beings, including plants and animals, reproduce offspring in their own image and likeness, or “after their own kind,” as the scripture puts it:

Genesis 1:

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

• • •

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

“After its kind” is another way of saying, “in its own image and likeness”. All animate beings, including plants, animals, and mankind, produce their offspring in their own “image and likeness;” and according to Genesis 1:26-27; Luke 3:38; God is no different. Adam was “the son of God” (Luke 3:38) by virtue of having been created in the “image and likeness” of God—as Seth was in the “image” of Adam (Genesis 1:26-27)—no difference. His real problem is that he doesn’t know his Bible properly. He is so enamored by, and infatuated with, and engrossed in his “philosophy,” that he doesn’t take the Bible seriously enough. Then he concludes his remarks as follows:

“And it seems to me that the best understanding of being made in the image and likeness of God is that just as God is personal, so we too are persons, and that differentiates us from all the rest of the animal and plant kingdoms, and enables us to have a personal relationship with God. Now what does it mean to be personal? Well that means to have capacities like self-consciousness, intentionality, moral agency, rationality, and so forth; and so I would see these properties as aspects of the image of God in which we are created.”

He has got that one badly wrong as well. He would be surprised to know that animals have as much “personhood” (as he has described it) as we do. They have all the capacities of “self-consciousness,” “intentionality,” “moral agency,” and “rationality” that we do. They are just not able to communicate with us in the same way that we can communicate with each other; and their intelligence is not as advanced. Apart from that, they have all the attributes of “personhood” that he has described. They have “self-consciousness,” they have “intentionality,” they even have “moral agency” (can tell right from wrong), and they have “rationality”. They can reason within themselves to determine the most correct action to take in a given situation. My advice to him is to ditch his “philosophy,” and take the Bible seriously—followed by the canonized scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.