I found the above short clip in which Jacob Hansen (LDS) and Trent Horn (Catholic) are having a friendly conversation about LDS beliefs; and I found that I had as much problems with what Jacob Hansen was saying, as I had with what Trent Horn was saying. Jacob begins the conversation with the following statement:
“It comes down to, there is that question of, are Mormons, or Latter-Day Saints, Christians, right? Now a lot of Latter-day Saints get very annoyed by that question, because of course, we are Christians! But I always say, You got to ask them what they mean by that? Because if by a Christian you mean, you are defining a Christian as a person who believes and holds to the doctrine of the Trinity—like, if that is a requisite characteristic of a Christian—well then, we are not!”
There are lots of issues with that statement. Firstly, when non-LDS folks (Evangelicals mainly) accuse LDS of not being “Christians,” their main focus is not the Trinity. They object to the whole concept of the Restoration of the gospel in the last days—including having additional scripture like the Book of Mormon, or modern day prophets and Apostles. They consider the canon of scripture closed, and the offices of prophets and Apostles ceased. They say all of that came to an end in the first century, and there will be no more prophets, Apostles, or additional scripture given. That is their main objection. Secondly, Latter-day Saints certainly believe in the Trinity. The Trinity refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost—which is what Latter-day Saints believe in. Our first article of faith says, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”. That is the Trinity. We baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost—which is the Trinity. LDS modern scripture make references to the Trinity:
2 Nephi 31:
21 … and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Mormon 7:
7 … to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, ….
Testimony of the Witnesses:
… And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Doctrine and Covenants 20:
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
That is the Trinity. How you theologically define that Trinity is a separate issue from the Trinity itself. Latter-day Saints believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost—which is the Trinity. Over the centuries, Christians have formulated several different theological definitions, descriptions, or explanations of that Trinity, which is a separate issue from the Trinity itself. The Bible declares, assumes, and requires belief in the Trinity—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But nowhere in the Bible does it attempt to theologically define that Trinity. That is something that Christians have attempted to do for themselves. In the above video, both Jacob Hansen as well as Trent Horn repeatedly confuse those two concepts, and fail to distinguish between them. You can’t have a serious discussion on the subject of Trinity without differentiating between those two concepts—the Trinity itself; and the theological exposition of it as expressed by Christians in later Christian history. Disagreeing with that theological exposition is not the same as rejecting the Trinity. To that then Trent Horn gives the following reply:
“But you know what is funny here, Jacob, is that I have noticed this reveals a problem with many Protestant views of authority; because there are many Protestants who will, you know, say, Mormons aren’t Christians—and I would say that LDS theology is not Christian—my authority for that is what Christ Church [Catholic] teaches; and that it is taught what is required for someone to be a Christian, according to Catholic theology, is a valid baptism—a valid Trinitarian baptism; that the Trinity is necessary to be a Christian, going back to the Nicene and Constantinopolitan Creeds.”
There are several issues with that statement. Firstly, Latter-day Saints believe in the Trinity, as explained above. Secondly, LDS very much believe in the need for proper priesthood authority to baptize (and administer other sacraments); and that they are in fact the only ones who do have that authority; and nobody else does, including Catholics. By that definition, Latter-day Saints are the only true Christians, and nobody else is, including Catholics. Thirdly, LDS baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Trent then continues:
“But if you are a Protestant, and you believe in sola scriptura—the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith—then you have a bit of a problem, because I could ask a Protestant, Where does the Bible say you must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian? Because many Protestants … because here is the thing, Protestants will say, Well yes, the Bible teaches the Trinity, you don’t need Tradition to know that. I say okay, I agree with you that it teaches that; but just saying the Bible teaches X, it doesn’t follow that X is necessary to be a Christian; because many Protestants will say, The Bible teaches Calvinism; but they are not going to say, you must be a Calvinist to be a Christian; or the Bible teaches is cessationism—that is, spiritual gifts ended in the first century—which you don’t have to believe that to be a Christian; or the Bible teaches all sorts of things; they would agree with that; but not that you need to be a Christian. So then the problem becomes, well, where does the Bible say what you need to believe to be a Christian? And I have covered this in several episodes of my channel. I think that that is a gigantic flaw in sola scriptura as an authority, as a structure for Protestantism; because the Bible is supposed to be our only and rule of faith; and yet the Bible doesn’t teach us probably one of the most important truths we could know: What must I believe to be a Christian—like do I have to believe in the Trinity or not, or can I believe in Jesus, and I trust in Jesus for my salvation, and I believe the blood of Jesus takes away my sins, and I have faith in him for my salvation; but have a Jehovah’s Witness Christology, or a Mormon Christology. They really I think put themselves in a bind here, that they really wish they could have the ecumenical councils, and that strict teaching; but they don’t want the authority behind them.”
The Bible doesn’t specifically define what it means, or what is required to be a Christian. The closest thing that the Bible comes to defining a Christian is that it means being a “disciple” [follower] of Jesus Christ (Acts 11:26). And in Acts 8:35-37; 16:27-33, the only criteria that is given as a qualification for baptism is belief in Jesus Christ. Those who want to identify themselves as “Christians” have to define for themselves what it means to be a Christian. They can’t call themselves “Christians” if they don’t have a definition of what that means; or how to define or identify a “Christian”. The problem there is that Christianity is not a unified, monolithic group. There are many different factions with disagreements. But if they want to call themselves “Christian,” they must have some kind of definition by which to identify that category. They can’t call themselves “Christians” without having some idea of, and being able to define what that means. Jacob then concludes:
“Yes and I agree 100%. That is I think is one of the many reasons that I have such a deep respect for the Catholic faith. I think that you guys have a lot more going for you because of that. Now what is funny though is that for a Latter-day Saint like me, the whole paradigm gets thrown out the window in a certain way, because belief isn’t really the thing that we care about as the dividing line; …”
I have to disagree with that. LDS theology and doctrine is very much “belief” oriented. The Articles of Faith (which is part of the canonized scriptures of the Church) outlines the core essential doctrinal “beliefs” of Latter-day Saints. If you have difficulty accepting any of those “beliefs,” you cannot rightly identify yourself as a Latter-day Saint. He continues:
“… because for a lot of—especially for Evangelical Christians—the idea is, do you accept Jesus? If you do, you are saved. Okay, right, … so then it becomes, well, but what does it mean to accept Jesus? Well you have to accept, as they say, the “right” Jesus. I am like, okay, I get that, I get that they are saying that. Here is the thing though, is that okay, then what you are saying essentially is that proper theological understanding is what constitutes your ability to be saved, right? And Latter-day Saints reject the—like we have a very wide sort of um leeway when it comes to belief.”
Not according to my understanding of LDS theology and doctrine. “Belief” is very much an essential part or ingredient of it. He continues:
“Our thing is about, are you making and keeping covenants with God, right? When you get baptized, you make a certain commitment to obey the Lord’s commandments, to live as he would have you live; and even if your understanding of God is imperfect, and is not quite right—now there are there is a limit to that, I mean you can’t believe whatever you want, right? There are things that are authoritative; but it is much broader. What we care about; and this is the thing if you go to our churches, what you hear us talking about all the time isn’t, “Do you accept Jesus into your heart” per se; although we want people to do that. Our thing is, is your faith in Christ manifesting in you keeping the commitments that you have made to him? And you are never going to be able to do that perfectly; but are you striving for it? Are you seeking the Lord in your life?”
Sure. That is something that sets apart Latter-day Saints from Evangelical Christians, and Protestants in general. We lay emphasis on being obedient to the will of God, keeping his commandments, and obeying his will. But that does not diminish the importance of “belief” in the theology of Latter-day Saints:
Doctrine and Covenants 68: 8 Go ye into all the world, preach the [restored] gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.
28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my [restored] gospel unto every creature who has not received it;
29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
The Restored gospel of Jesus Christ is all about “belief”—believing in true sound doctrine, believing in the right thing.
