Pastor Jeff and David Snell have had their second conversation about the beliefs, teachings, and doctrines of the Church, in which 5 questions and answers were exchanged. I will skip the first two, and briefly comment on the last three. At 5:50 minutes into the video Pastor Jeff asks the following question:
“Help me understand the LDS teaching on Atonement, specifically the emphasis on the garden of Gethsemane?”
The significance of Gethsemane in the Atonement process in the theology of Latter-day Saints is derived from teachings found in modern scriptures, as well as in the Bible, such as the following:
Mosiah 3:
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
Doctrine and Covenants 19:
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
These verses refer to his experience in the garden of Gethsemane, as described in these verses in the New Testament:
Matthew 26:
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 14:
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Luke 22:
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Pastor Jeff thinks that what Jesus experienced in Gethsemane was the result of what he “anticipated going to the cross,” which doesn’t make a lot of sense. Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans in those days. They went bravely to their deaths without having had a “Gethsemane experience” before they were crucified. Were they braver than Jesus? Thousands of early Christians were martyred in Rome by being crucified, or burned at the stake. They went bravely to their death without having a “Gethsemane experience”. Were they braver than Jesus? So Jesus was such a weakling coward, and so scared of the cross, that he “sweated blood” in Gethsemane at the thought, and an angel had to come down from heaven to “strengthen” him—something that never happened to any other Christian who had the same experience? How does that make sense? And how does it compare with the calm and collected way in which Jesus stood before Pilate before being crucified? Pastor Jeff must have a very low opinion of Jesus, if he thinks that he “sweated blood” in Gethsemane because he was scared to death of the cross!
The Atonement took place through the shedding of his blood on the cross, no doubts about it. That is not in dispute. He also suffered intense sufferings on the cross, in addition to the pains normally associated with crucifixion. But that does not discount the fact that he also experienced intense suffering in Gethsemane as part of the Atoning process, as described in the previous quotes from the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Those verses suggest that Jesus suffered intense sufferings throughout his life, such as hunger, thirst, and fatigue etc. (including severe temptations from the devil), all of which in fact were part of the Atoning process. But the ultimate act of the Atonement culminated on the cross, where he offered his life as a sacrifice for sin. But all of his sufferings throughout his life were part of the Atoning process, including what he experienced in Gethsemane, which was probably the most intense. Paul refers to that experience in these words:
Hebrews 12:
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
That is a reference to what happened in Gethsemane, not on the cross. According to the Bible, Jesus “learned obedience” by the things which he suffered, and was “made perfect” through sufferings (Hebrews 2:9-11; 5:8-9). He experienced those “sufferings” throughout his life, and all of them were part of the Atoning process, not just the ones he experienced on the cross. Pastor Jeff would be a lot smarter and wiser if he tried to learn from LDS theology and doctrine, instead of finding fault. At 13:12 minutes into the video he asks the following question:
“how do you understand and experience the Holy Spirit?”
My answer to that question would be, “The same as any other Christian would or should”. That is a kind of loaded question. It is an indirect allusion to the LDS claim of being able to know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, or that the Church is true. The more important question underlying that is, Does the Bible teach that the Holy Ghost reveals truth? The answer is Yes, it does:
Matthew 16:
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 16:
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
1 John 2:
20 But ye have an unction [anointing] from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
• • •
27 But the anointing [Holy Ghost] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
So there is no doubt that the Bible teaches that the Holy Ghost reveals truth. It leads us in fact to all truth. And it is a gift that is given to all true believers in Jesus Christ, not just to a few. So my question is, Does Pastor Jeff believe this? And if so, how does he understand it taking place? Has he ever had any personal experience of that? If so, how would he describe it? If he has never had that experience, shouldn’t he be concerned? because Jesus says that it is a gift that is given to all true Christians, in order to lead them to all truth? And if indeed he has had that experience, how would he describe it? When he has answered those questions for me, I will answer his question, because both answers would be the same. By answering my question, he will have answered his own question.
Protestant Christians generally tend to deride, be dismissive, question, or cast doubt on LDS claims to be able to know by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, or that the Church is true. They derisively equate it with “feelings,” and say that is not a “reliable” way of knowing the truth. They counter it by asking us to explain and describe to them exactly “how” we “know,” or have that experience. The answer is that the Bible doesn’t explain or describe “how” it happens, and neither do we. But just because we can’t describe or explain “how” it happens, it doesn’t follow that therefore it doesn’t happen, or can’t happen. So my answer to those who ask that question is, Do they deny that the Bible teaches that we can know the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost? And if they accept that it does, how do they think that it happens? The truth is that the Bible doesn’t explain “how” it happens; it just says that it does. By questioning Latter-day Saint claims to be able to know the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are undermining their own faith in the Bible, and discrediting their own Christian credentials, because it is the Bible in fact that says that we can know the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost. Peter had received a personal witness and revelation from God, disclosing to him the true identity of Jesus (Matthew 16:17), but evidently he didn’t know it himself, and Jesus had to tell him. That is how divine truth is communicated by the power of the Spirit of God.
At around 10:12 minutes into the video Pastor Jeff responds to the LDS objection of Christianity being divided into so many different competing sects and denominations etc., and his answer is that the differences are “just different emphases we might put on certain doctrines, or the way we might practice them,” but that “when it comes to core essential doctrine, for the most part we agree,” and he sees the diversity among them as “a very beautiful thing”. I did a search, and found the following information:
“Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist—the list goes on. Estimations show there are more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 globally, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity. So why does Christianity have so many branches?
“A cursory look shows that differences in belief, power grabs and corruption all had a part to play.” Link
There is also an interesting Wikipedia article about Christian denominations that can be seen here. So his claim that they are just “minor disagreements,” or that the diversity is a “beautiful thing” is a copout. Historically, many of those divisions came about as a result of serious, even violent disagreements; and there is nothing “beautiful” about having theological, sectarian, doctrinal, or denominational differences and disagreements. Jesus established one church, not many churches. He said, “On this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). He did not say, “On this rock I will build my churches; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them”. Jesus also told his disciples to be “one” (John 10:16; 17:11, 21-23). They can’t be “one” if they are split up into thousands of disagreeing churches. And they are not his true disciples if they are not “one”.
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