From Mormonism to Catholicism—Conversation

 

I came across the above video in which Steven Pynakker interviews Jeremy Christiansen, author of the book: From the Susquehanna to The Tibor: A Memoir of Conversion from Mormonism to the Roman Catholic Church, in which he tells the story of his conversion from Mormonism to Catholicism. I haven’t read the book, so I can’t comment on its contents. I am going to briefly comment on a couple of points he has raised in the video. It is a two hour long video, most of which is a kind of rambling conversation, which again is not suitable for a detailed comment. So I have picked out two points that he has brought up in his conversation with Pynakker to briefly comment on. At around 43:49 minutes into the video he raises a question about what can be regarded as an official, or authoritative source of Church doctrine, as follows:

“What is Mormon Doctrine? What is Doctrine, and how do you know where is it in? Where, in the world of Mormonism, do you look to know what is official Church teaching; like, where is that set forth? A lot of times you will hear people say, ‘Well, it is in the Standard Works’. Okay, well, … where in the Standard Works does it say, in the revealed parts, right, that these are official Church teaching? And it was important because, on for instance the issue of blacks and the priesthood, my own take (I think people can disagree with this), but I think it is implausible to suggest that the teaching that had supported the ban on blacks holding the priesthood, was just a policy. I think it was much more than that. That is my own read of things, of the history.”

There are two points that he has raised in there that need to be discussed separately. On the subject of the source of Church doctrine, I would have thought that when all the leadership of the Church unanimously agree, and declare that it is in the Standard Works (canonized scriptures of the Church), then that should be sufficient to establish it. This is what the leadership of the Church have consistently taught. Here are some quotes:

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said; if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.

“You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203–4.)

“If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve, and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false, and you are not bound to accept it as truth.” (Harold B Lee, European Area Conference of the Church, Munich, Germany, 1973.)

“If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scripture, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth.” (Harold B Lee, 11th President, Improvement Era, January 1969, p. 13.)

“The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These would include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price. These have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and are the only sources of absolute appeal for our doctrine.” (B H Roberts, Deseret News (July 24, 1921) sec. 4:7.)

“I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world … to be satisfied with anything I do [or say], unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied … Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, ‘If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,’ this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 3:5.).

And there are also numerous passages of scripture itself that likewise confirms this. Here are some quotes (punctuation revised):

1 Nephi 15:

14 And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know, and come to the knowledge of their forefathers; and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer, and the very points of his doctrine [as revealed in the canon], that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.

2 Nephi 26:

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

3 Nephi 11:

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily I say unto you, that this is my doctrine. And I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me, believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me; for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

3 Nephi 21:

6 For thus it behooveth the Father, that it [Book of Mormon] should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

Doctrine and Covenants 10:

62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them [in the Book of Mormon]; and behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up; and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine; yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.

63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures, and do not understand them.

64 Therefore I will unfold unto them this great mystery;

65 For behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;

66 Yea if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.

67 Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

Doctrine and Covenants 11:

15 Behold, I command you that you need not suppose that you are called to preach, until you are called.

16 Wait a little longer, until you shall have my word, my rock, my church, and my gospel, that you may know of a surety my doctrine.

17 And then, behold, according to your desires, yea, even according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:

12 And again, the elders, priests, and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

• • •

59 Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law [including doctrine], to be my law to govern my church;

What else is he looking for? How else is the Church supposed to declare what the official, authoritative, definitive, binding source of its theology and doctrine (and law) is? It is in the Standard Works, period, end of story. No arguments after that.

The second point he raises concerns the blacks and the priesthood; and it is not clear exactly what his objection is. Is he saying that it is, or it isn’t Church doctrine? Is he saying that they erred in their decision, or they didn’t err? What exactly is his point? I am not clear on what his objection actually is, to be able to respond to it. He says, “It is implausible to suggest that the teaching … was just a policy”. Okay, what does he think it was, and on the basis of what evidence or criteria? But as far as the official source of Church doctrine is concerned, it is in the scriptural canon of the Church, or in the Standard Works, as Latter-day Saints tend to refer to it. How else is the Church supposed to declare that in order to make him convinced?

Moving on, at 52:40 minutes into the video he makes reference to Jeremiah 17:9: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked …,” which he has apparently used as the “epigram” to his book, and uses it to criticize, or object to the Latter-day Saint claims to be able to know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon (or anything else) is true, and dismisses it as unreliable “feelings”. Here are some extracts:

“I just had this, you know, it is the epigram to the book that really sums up how I felt. It is Jeremiah chapter 17 verse 9. This is the King James version: ‘But the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt, who can understand it?’ And that is really just how I felt. I felt like I had lived life thinking about what was true and what was not true based on how I felt about it. And … you know, I knew that priesthood leaders are not perfect. I mean, I served a mission; I saw priesthood leaders say things and blessings that made my eyebrows come off my face; and I knew that there was a difference between, or at least I thought I knew, there is a difference between our emotions and the Holy Ghost. And I know that that is usually caveated. But in my experience, and experience with other people I spoke with when I wrote the book, to say, ‘Is this the experience you had, and was it just me, that is how I describe the testimonial experience? And that emotion is very very common. And when I talk to Catholics about this (and I don’t mean this in any way to faithful LDS people who are listening, I don’t mean to denigrate your faith, and so please don’t take it that way, I really don’t mean it that way), But I will say, you know, it is the feeling, the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the Mormon context, for most people is a feeling that everybody has. We all have those moments of strong emotion, in reacting to seeing things that are good, or beautiful, that move us. And I think, you know, when you are raised in a context to believe that when that coincides with say contemplating an abstract truth proposition, like Joseph Smith is a true Prophet; when those two things happen at the same time; when you are taught your whole life that is a special way of knowing, kind of infallibly, right, something is true, irrespective of what other, whatever other evidence you are looking at, it has a real, it is really powerful; and it really is hard for, it was hard for me to leave Mormonism; because it is really dark to stare out into the abyss, and remember all those decisions you made in your life as a subject of prayer, and feeling that response, and making big decisions in life; and to contemplate that maybe it wasn’t God. Just to face up to that, is a dark thing. It is very scary, to sit there and think, ‘Why am I in the profession I am in? Why did I go to school where I went to school? Why am I married to who am I married? Why have I done all these things I have done?’ It pulls out the rug of meaning right from out under you very swiftly. And you know, I feel a lot of compassion for people who go through that; and I understand why so many people who go through that, come out on the other side at best agnostic, or come out atheists, come out very embittered, come out with a sometimes a Nietzschean or nihilistic viewpoint, because it hurts deeply to have that meaning kind of pulled out from under you.”

Again, he has mixed up quite a few unrelated things. There is a promise made in the Book of Mormon, that the truth of it can be known by the power of the Holy Ghost, quote:

Moroni 10:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

That is the promise that is contained in the Book of Mormon, which agrees 100% with what the Bible teaches:

Matthew 16:

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 John 2:

20 But ye have an unction [anointing] from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

• • •

27 But the anointing [Holy Ghost] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

James 1:

5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

So there is no question that the Bible teaches that we can know the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the same as what the Book of Mormon teaches. If he has an issue with that, then his problem is with the Bible, not with the Book of Mormon. If he has difficulty believing what the Bible teaches, why is that anybody else’s problem? And the “testimony of the Holy Ghost” is not the same as “feelings”. It is spirit communicating with spirit. It is a sure witness, not some kind of “emotion” or “feeling”. It is a knowledge of the truth gained by a personal revelation from God. Some Latter-day Saints may have expressed it in terms of “feelings,” because they have no other way of describing it. It is not an experience that can be described or conveyed to someone else. Everyone must experience it for himself, and then they will know. It is a sure witness, conveyed by the power of the Spirit of God. It is the same experience that Peter had when he declared, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16); and Jesus replied, “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). At that point Peter knew something. He wasn’t just “guessing,” or having a “feeling” or “emotion”. Such is a testimony of the Holy Ghost.

Once the truth of the Book of Mormon is established by the sure witness of the Holy Ghost, however, that also establishes Joseph Smith as a true prophet, and the Church he established God’s only true Church on earth. And it is a sure witness, not some kind of a “feeling” or “emotion”. Everything else he has said after that is irrelevant to that main point, and relates to something else. My answer to the rest of what he has said in relation to that subject, as quoted above, is, how do Catholics determine which “school” to go to, or what “employment” to take, or whom to “marry” etc.; and how is that any different from how Latter-day Saints do it? The answer is that most likely there is no difference. They all do it more or less the same way. They all think about it (and if they are faithful Christians, they may also pray about it), and make their decisions on the basis of their logical thinking, and possibly also feelings and emotions. If it is wrong for Latter-day Saints to follow that course in the decisions in their life, then so is it for everybody else, including Catholics; because as far as I know, they all do it in more or less the same way.

The impression I am getting is that none of those are his real reasons for leaving the Church. They are excuses, not reasons. His real reason is something else, which he doesn’t now want to tell us about.