I found the above video from Jeremy Christiansen, a former Latter-day Saint who later converted to Catholicism, justifying his conversation. I had previously responded to an earlier interview he gave to Steven Pynakker six months ago in February 2023, which can be seen here. This is a much shorter video, in which he succinctly explains and justifies his conversation. He begins as follows:
“There are two things I would say to an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who supposes that a great apostasy occurred, and what they ought to do. Two things: One is a piece of common ground: truth. We want truth. That is what we want. What matters is truth. Catholics want truth, Mormons want truth. Hold fast to that, because that will always be the right guiding principle, is to want the truth. And the second would be to come from that: to read, to go and and look for yourself. You can open up, you can find for free on the Internet, you can find solid translations of the church Fathers, and you can read the writings of the people who died in colosseums across the Empire. You can read the writings and the beliefs of people who suffered greatly for their faith in Jesus Christ; and you can judge for yourself whether you thought these people believed in an imminent apostasy occurring; or do you really think these people were in the midst of one, …”
That is a good introduction, it is a good start! “Truth” is the most important element. And the most important item, or element of truth in this discussion, relative to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that needs to be established before anything else, is not whether the “apostasy” occurred or not, or is true or not; but whether the Church that Joseph Smith claimed to have established by revelation, and by the ministration of angels, is true or not; and whether its claims to be lead by revelation, by true prophets and Apostles, are true or not—and the chief means of determining that is the Book of Mormon. That is the primary reason why it was given. As Joseph Smith once said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion …”. It is the litmus test, the ultimate touchstone by which the validity of the truth claims of Joseph Smith, and of the Church that he established can be assessed. It is the rock on which the restored Church of Jesus Christ stands or falls. If the Book of Mormon is true, that means that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and the Church that he established by revelation, and by the ministration of angels, is true—thus making it a true Restoration of God’s one and only true Church on earth. If the Book of Mormon is not true, and is not what it claims to be, that invalidates the Church’s claims completely, and there is nothing left to argue about. Luckily there is a way to find out for sure. The Book of Mormon claims to be a book of ancient scripture equal to the Bible, directly revealed from heaven; and contains a promise, that those who prayerfully study it, with a sincere desire to know of its truth, and ask God in faith, the truth of it will be revealed to them by the power of the Holy Ghost:
Moroni 10:
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things [i.e. the Book of Mormon], if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
And the testimony of the Holy Ghost is not the same as “feelings,” as he has implied. It is an assured witness, a personal revelation from God that something is true. That is how we can know—for sure. Once the truth of the Book of Mormon has been established, however, that also proves that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and the Church he established by revelation is God’s true Church. Once that has been determined, it also proves that an Apostasy must have occurred for the Restoration to have become necessary. There would have been no need for a Restoration, if there had been no Apostasy. We don’t start with the Apostasy, and then end with the restored Church. It is the other way. It is the testimony of the Restoration that proves to us that there must have been an Apostasy. Joseph Smith didn’t start with the Apostasy, and end with the Restoration. He didn’t say, “Christianity has apostatized, therefore let’s start a new religion”. He went to the woods to inquire of the Lord which church was right, and which one to join. It was the Lord that then told him that all churches were wrong, instructed him to establish God’s true Church. And the chief means of determining the truth of that claim is the Book of Mormon. That is the primary reason why it was given—to stand as a witness to the restoration of the gospel in the latter days.
On the subject of our understanding of the doctrine of the Apostasy, or the nature of that Apostasy, he has made some incorrect statements about that too. It does not mean that there were no more true believing Christians left in the world, who had a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It means that priesthood keys and Apostolic authority was lost. It means that the Church could no longer be led by revelation, by true prophets and Apostles, as it was initially. The institution of the Twelve Apostles was never meant to be abolished, or discontinued. It was lost as a result of persecution and martyrdom. But it does not mean that all Christians thereafter lost their faith, and no one after that had a saving faith in Jesus Christ. The Early Church Fathers were faithful believing Christians and great men, and produced great Christian literature worthy of our study and examination. That is not in dispute. And the same applies to the early Christian martyrs. They were faithful, believing Christians and great men and women, who gave their lives rather than deny their faith. None of that is denied or questioned. Likewise we have great respect for the Catholic Church as an institution, its history and legacy; and value its historical role in preserving the Christian faith, tradition, and scripture in the world. Our belief in the doctrine of the Apostasy does not go against any of those things. One other thing he has said that needs to be answered is the following:
“Here is the slippery part, is that, Mormons are not universalists in the strict sense; but universalists in a very real sense; and the concept of hell is basically non-existent. It is only there for the devil and the angels who followed him, and maybe some very small subset of people who have an assured knowledge of the truthfulness of the LDS Church, and who rejected anyway, who you would have to be like raw evil to do that, if you really knew, right? Otherwise all of us are going to a kingdom of Glory, that is greater than what anything we could possibly conceive of.”
That is not correct either. There is a damnation and a hell, and both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants have a lot to say about That. Here are a selection of references:
2 Nephi 2:
24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.
Alma 12:
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.
3 Nephi 11:
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
3 Nephi 12:
30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.
3 Nephi 18:
13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.
• • •
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.
3 Nephi 22:
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
Mormon 9:
4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.
Ether 4:
18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.
Doctrine and Covenants 10:
26 And thus he flattereth them, and leadeth them along until he draggeth their souls down to hell; and thus he causeth them to catch themselves in their own snare.
Doctrine and Covenants 49:
5 Thus saith the Lord; for I am God, and have sent mine Only Begotten Son into the world for the redemption of the world, and have decreed that he that receiveth him shall be saved, and he that receiveth him not shall be damned.
Doctrine and Covenants 68:
8 Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
Doctrine and Covenants 84:
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
• • •
74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.
Doctrine and Covenants 104:
18 Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.
Doctrine and Covenants 112:
28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my gospel unto every creature who has not received it;
29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
Doctrine and Covenants 121:
23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.
Doctrine and Covenants 132:
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
The doctrine of the “three degrees of glory” (D&C 76, 88) in LDS theology is a description of what heaven looks like. It is not a denial of hell. The Bible teaches that there are gradations of heaven and hell. Not all who go to heaven receive the same reward, nor all who go to hell receive the same punishment. Jesus said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). Some receive greater rewards in heaven than others (Matt. 5:12; 6:1; Luke 6:23); and some are punished with fewer “stripes” in hell than others (Luke 12:47–48). For some, hell is permanent; but for others, it is temporary. Some “come out thence” after they have paid the “uttermost farthing” (Matt. 5:26); and some will not be forgiven either in this life or in the next (Matt. 5:26). The implication of the last quote is that some will be “forgiven” in the next life. There are some passages of scripture that tend to paint a black-and-white picture of the afterlife; but there are also passages that teach something different, as referenced above. It is not a “one size fits all,” in heaven or in hell. The LDS doctrine of heaven and hell is closer to the Bible than that of either Catholicism or Protestantism; although in fairness, the Catholic doctrine of “Purgatory” brings it closer to the Bible than that of Protestantism.
No comments:
Post a Comment