Following my previous blog post in which I had discussed Jonathan Neville’s views on the translation of the Book of Mormon, I have just noticed another recent video, interviewing Jonathan Neville on the same subject, hosted by Steven Murphy, owner of the YouTube channel “Mormonism with the Murph” seen above. It is a long video, more than 2½ hours long, most of which I am going to skip. I will briefly comment on something that was said right at the end. At around the 2:33:52 timestamp, Steven asks Jonathan the following question:
“But would you see it not compatible being both (other than, you know, the demonstration explaining); but you wouldn’t see it as sometimes using the spectacles, sometimes using the seer stone, throughout the translation? Would you see them as contradictory? It couldn’t have been both?”
The question he is asking is, why couldn’t Joseph Smith have used both instruments, or either instrument interchangeably, during the translation process? Why did it have to be only one of the instruments, and exclude the other? To that then Jonathan Neville gives the following answer:
“… Well for me it goes beyond that though, because the Urim and Thummim was specifically designed for the translation; and so in my view, the whole narrative collapses if you say, well, he could just use the seer stone; because then Moroni’s instructions about how they were preserved with the plates so that he could translate; there is no reason for any of that. I am sure you have seen the meme that has Joseph looking in a hat, and it says, you know, the prophets recorded all this history, and abridged it, and preserved the place, or anything just so Joseph …”
There are several issues with that argument. Firstly, the Urim and Thummim was not just an instrument of translation; it was first and foremost, and primarily an instrument of revelation. That was its primary purpose and function from the beginning, as described in the Book of Mormon and elsewhere. It could also be used as an instrument of translation, because it was an instrument of revelation. But that was not its exclusive, or primary purpose. That is how it is described in the Book of Mormon:
Mosiah 8:
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters; and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not, and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla, is the man that is commanded to do these things; and who has this high gift from God.
15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.
16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator, and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed; or rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them; and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.
18 Thus God has provided a means that man through faith might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings.
So the Urim and Thummim was not exclusively an instrument translation. It was primarily an instrument of revelation, which could also be used as a means of translating unknown languages, because it was an instrument of revelation. Thus potentially any instrument of revelation could be used to translate the plates, not just the U&T. And we know that over time, Joseph Smith’s spiritual gifts and powers were developed to such an extent that he was able to receive revelation from God, or to translate, without using any “instruments” at all. We also know that over time in sacred history, God has provided men with several different instruments of revelation, not just the U&T. In the Book of Mormon, we have the example of the Liahona, which is described as a compass, but was also an instrument of revelation (1 Nephi 16:26-30). The seer stone that Joseph Smith had; as well as the “gift of Aaron,” and other spiritual gifts of revelation that was given to Oliver Cowdery (D&C 8), are other examples. The difference between the Urim and Thummim and other instruments of revelation it seems was that the U&T was a much more powerful means of receiving revelation than the rest. But all of them were instruments of revelation, and all of them could potentially have been used to do the work of translation—or none at all, as was the case with Joseph Smith later on. The fact that Moroni told Joseph Smith that the Urim and Thummim had been supplied with the plates for the purpose of their translation, does not rule out all possibility of any other similar instruments, or spiritual gifts, might likewise be used for the same purpose. That is simply not a valid logical conclusion.
After that, the conversation turns to the question of the need or usefulness of the plates at all, if Joseph Smith was able to translate without seeing or using the plates, as some of the accounts of the translation seem to suggest. Here is a quote taken from a book by Richard Bushman apparently:
“Among Latter-day Saints, the question is, why the plates at all? As long as it was believed Joseph read from the plates through the Urim and Thummim, their purpose was clear; but if he read the text from a seer stone, why the plates lay covered on a table, as many now believe? What part did they play? Why the effort to preserve them throughout the centuries? Why the trouble to recover and protect them? Why their presence? Sometimes it looks as if the plates were both essential to translation and useless?”
That is a very unwise and disingenuous comment. Firstly, as explained in my previous post, Joseph Smith never explained to anyone precisely how the Book of Mormon was translated. Secondly, the text of the Book of Mormon had to have been written by someone, on something, somewhere, and at some point in time, for it later to have been “translated”—regardless of how it was translated. How could Joseph Smith have “translated” something that had never been “written” by anyone, on something, somewhere, and at some point in time—regardless of the translation process? We also know that Joseph Smith was later commissioned by the Lord to make an inspired translation of the Bible; and he was able to do so purely by revelation, without looking at any of the ancient manuscripts—some of which would have been lost by then. Shall we then conclude that those original manuscripts had been useless, and need never have been written in the first place, because Joseph was later able to translate them without seeing the manuscripts anyway? That is absurd. It is a foolish argument. And of course, the plates served another important purpose; they were later shown to witnesses by the power of God, who were then able to testify to the world that they had seen them, and that they were genuine.
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