LDS Versus Calvinism Debate

 

I noticed the above debate between James White (Calvinist), and Jacob Hansen (LDS). It is a long video, over two hours long, and it would be a bit tedious to attempt to unpack it all, and discuss it in detail; so I am going to focus on two main points raised therein. The first relates to Joseph Smith’s teaching that God the Father was once a man who progressed to become God! In other words, he wasn’t always God! James White objects to that, on the grounds that the Bible teaches that God is eternal, and has always been God!—to which Jacob Hansen does not appear to be able to give a good answer. James White is not the only one of course who has raised that objection; lots of other people have—including Kelly Powers, in some of his recent videos. There is, however, an answer to that objection, from the LDS point of view.

The Bible does indeed teach that God is “eternal” (1 Timothy 1:17), “everlasting” (Genesis 21:33; Psalm 90:2), and “unchanging” (Malachi 3:6); he is the great “I Am” (Exodus 3:14); he is “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Revelation 22:13). That is how the Bible describes God—which oddly enough, is also how modern LDS scripture describes God. He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Moroni 7:22); he is “the same yesterday, today, and forever”, without “variableness” or “shadow of changing” (Mormon 9:9); he is not “changeable”, is “from all eternity to all eternity” (Moroni 8:18); he is “Alpha and Omega”, the “beginning and the end”; he is “endless” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:1, 4); his “paths are straight”, and his course is “one eternal round” (Doctrine and Covenants 3:2). So modern LDS scripture agrees absolutely with the Bible on the divine attributes of infinity, eternity, everlastingness etc.

So how do we reconcile Joseph Smith’s teaching on the subject, with what is taught in the Bible, as well as in modern LDS scripture? Well, there is an answer to that question. The answer is given in the following passage in LDS scripture. LDS scripture does indeed teach that men can be deified, they can become “gods”. Those who are exalted to the celestial kingdom are deified, they become divine, they become “gods”; and when they are, they acquire the same divine attributes. They acquire all the divine attributes of infinity, eternity, everlastingness etc. In other words, those are divine attributes that can be acquired. Here is the scripture that provides the key to solving that problem:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

The finite human mind may find it difficult to wrap itself around that idea; but that is man’s problem, not God’s. The fact that man cannot comprehend everything that God can comprehend, is man’s problem, not God’s problem. The Book of Mormon teaches that God exists outside of time: 

Alma 40:

8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

That is what makes God “infinite” and “eternal”, from “everlasting to everlasting” etc.; and “eternally God”. He exists outside of time; he is not limited, or constrained by time; he is timeless. And those are attributes that can be acquired by man. When man is placed outside of time by God—where God himself is—then man also acquires the same divine attributes that God possesses—infinity, eternity, and everlastingness etc. That is the answer to James White’s question—and others who have raised the same question. It is possible for mortal, temporal man to acquire and possess the same divine attributes that God possesses—infinity, eternity, and everlastingness; which also explains how God himself was once a man who progressed to become God. That is the first point that I wanted to address.

The second point I wanted to address relates to Jacob Hansen’s suggestion that the global flood in the days of Noah, which destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth except Noah and his immediate descendants, as recorded in the Bible, is not really true, and did not really happen. He had previously raised similar objections to other Old Testament accounts, such as God’s commandment to the Israelites to completely destroy and exterminate the Canaanites, and other inhabitants of the lands which they were to conquer (Deuteronomy 7:1-2; 20:16-17); and also later on the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:1-3)—his argument being that these commandments were immoral and unethical (from his point of view), and therefore could not have originated from a kind, loving, and merciful God. Well he speaks for himself. That is not the official position of the LDS Church, with regard to those biblical accounts. Those events occurred as described in the Old Testament. I had previously discussed those issues raised by him in my other blog posts, therefore there is no need to discuss them again here. But the point to note is that he speaks for himself, not for the Church. The LDS Church accepts the biblical account.